Jarrod Croker's defence

 
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 4:51 pm
Great game today skip.

And congrats on the point scoring tally...
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:02 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:You're kidding right. There are posters on this forum who see him as an origin centre with the ball playing of Lyon and the defence of Matt Cooper. You're telling me that they aren't "pro-Croker"?


I see strawmans
They are everywhere

No one has ever said that or even suggested it. What has been said is the criticism he cops is only very rarely warranted.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:03 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:
Ultima wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Ultima wrote:
Woodgers wrote:I wasn't having a go at you CJ, just making a point.

We play a good team and he's not great, the anti-Croker brigade come out. We play a rubbish team and he plays well, the pro-Croker brigade come out. There's no in between!


So we are ignoring he won the player of the year last year right?

It's been pretty across the board that people agree he had a poor year.... There isn't a "pro-Croker brigade" more so there are some people who like to give it to the moron anti-Croker brigade and are willing to recognise when he has a good game.

If he carries the form from that game into next year he could easily get back to the top of the team too.

You're kidding right. There are posters on this forum who see him as an origin centre with the ball playing of Lyon and the defence of Matt Cooper.


And there are some who blame him for the first two tries the Eels got... I'm going to say him making origin, while still pretty unlikely, is a lot closer to the mark than the people who give him **** constantly... He hasn't been the best out there this year but he has been far from the worse, yet would have more people bitching about him in this forum than any other player, although Fensom is catching up...

Like you were blaming Stuart?

Both are unreasonable to be honest. Croker is no origin centre and he is no reserve grade nuffy. He is the best centre we have at the club. Some of the crap he cops here is over the top, but the constant bickering is also fuelled by the fact that certain posters are blind to his obvious weaknesses.


Well said Dr Zaius
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:05 pm
This thread continues to make me laugh. I think the kid is very deserving of our captaincy and is growing nicely into the role and will continue to develop going forward

Couldn't be happier for him today
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:10 pm
The Nickman wrote:This thread continues to make me laugh. I think the kid is very deserving of our captaincy and is growing nicely into the role and will continue to develop going forward

Couldn't be happier for him today


exactly :thumbsup
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:15 pm
The Nickman wrote:This thread continues to make me laugh. I think the kid is very deserving of our captaincy and is growing nicely into the role and will continue to develop going forward

Couldn't be happier for him today

X 2
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:21 pm
I don't even really know how you measure a good captain as a fan. It's too hard to know what is said and done Monday to Friday, in the sheds and behind the sticks.

What I can judge is that he speaks pretty well and is a good representative of the club. The refs have no time for him though, they wave him away like they would a first year rookie.

I wish the club had a better choice, we probably don't.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:25 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:
Ultima wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Ultima wrote:
Woodgers wrote:I wasn't having a go at you CJ, just making a point.

We play a good team and he's not great, the anti-Croker brigade come out. We play a rubbish team and he plays well, the pro-Croker brigade come out. There's no in between!


So we are ignoring he won the player of the year last year right?

It's been pretty across the board that people agree he had a poor year.... There isn't a "pro-Croker brigade" more so there are some people who like to give it to the moron anti-Croker brigade and are willing to recognise when he has a good game.

If he carries the form from that game into next year he could easily get back to the top of the team too.

You're kidding right. There are posters on this forum who see him as an origin centre with the ball playing of Lyon and the defence of Matt Cooper.


And there are some who blame him for the first two tries the Eels got... I'm going to say him making origin, while still pretty unlikely, is a lot closer to the mark than the people who give him **** constantly... He hasn't been the best out there this year but he has been far from the worse, yet would have more people bitching about him in this forum than any other player, although Fensom is catching up...

Like you were blaming Stuart?

Both are unreasonable to be honest. Croker is no origin centre and he is no reserve grade nuffy. He is the best centre we have at the club. Some of the crap he cops here is over the top, but the constant bickering is also fuelled by the fact that certain posters are blind to his obvious weaknesses.


Yeah that is sort of what I was saying. There's too much black and white on this topic and not enough grey. I just call it as I see it and update my opinion based on the most recent information.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:27 pm
Woodgers wrote:The refs have no time for him though, they wave him away like they would a first year rookie.


This kind of thing always makes me laugh... I dont know how much football you watch these days, mate. But there is about 4 blokes in the league - JT, Gallen, Lyon and Smith, who DONT get this treatment from most refs

Croker gets treated by them with no more OR less respect than almost every other captain in the game gets. And those who get treated differently just happen to be players who are elite top 10 players in the world.

I saw in the game day thread some **** idiot blowing up because Croker wasnt yelling at the refs after the Semi tries... i mean what do people want from him? To stomp up the refs carrying on like an absolute **** ****, like Campese or Woolford? What did that method of dealing with referee's ever get us? The zebras tuned those idiots out after 3 minutes of play
Croker goes up, demands an explaination, is respectful, gets his point across, listens to what they say in reply and gets on with the game. What more can he do? It's not like he's going to storm up to them, make his case and they'll go "****, you've got a great point there, hang on a second and ill reverse our decision"

Not aimed at you, you post just prompted me to talk about something that really grates me. But it's this kind of stuff that im referrring to that i think gets peoples backs up with regards to criticism of Croker. It's utterly ridiculous.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:36 pm
Good point Pigman. Croker is actually on his way to earning respect by NOT being a total xxxx
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:47 pm
roneel78 wrote:
The Nickman wrote:This thread continues to make me laugh. I think the kid is very deserving of our captaincy and is growing nicely into the role and will continue to develop going forward

Couldn't be happier for him today

X 2

X 3 carry the 1
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:48 pm
dubby wrote:Good point Pigman. Croker is actually on his way to earning respect by NOT being a total xxxx

Agreed
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:49 pm
I'm not calling Croker an Origin player but if Will Hopoate is then i won't say he never will be.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:50 pm
Pigman wrote:
Woodgers wrote:The refs have no time for him though, they wave him away like they would a first year rookie.


This kind of thing always makes me laugh... I dont know how much football you watch these days, mate. But there is about 4 blokes in the league - JT, Gallen, Lyon and Smith, who DONT get this treatment from most refs

Croker gets treated by them with no more OR less respect than almost every other captain in the game gets. And those who get treated differently just happen to be players who are elite top 10 players in the world.

I saw in the game day thread some **** idiot blowing up because Croker wasnt yelling at the refs after the Semi tries... i mean what do people want from him? To stomp up the refs carrying on like an absolute **** ****, like Campese or Woolford? What did that method of dealing with referee's ever get us? The zebras tuned those idiots out after 3 minutes of play
Croker goes up, demands an explaination, is respectful, gets his point across, listens to what they say in reply and gets on with the game. What more can he do? It's not like he's going to storm up to them, make his case and they'll go "****, you've got a great point there, hang on a second and ill reverse our decision"

Not aimed at you, you post just prompted me to talk about something that really grates me. But it's this kind of stuff that im referrring to that i think gets peoples backs up with regards to criticism of Croker. It's utterly ridiculous.


Mate, it's because he is so easy going that they aren't worried about anything he has to say. I played league and soccer most of my life and I can tell you that while soccer cops a slamming about the way they deal with refs, there is a point to what the captains do. If you get a bad call, you're letting the officials know that so that you're likely to get the next one. It works. You're almost advocating the whole time. Having captained a fair bit, I can tell you that you almost need to manage the ref as much as they manage the game. Like it or not, that's part of any sport that has someone adjudicating. I don't think the NRL is much different. You can go too far like Campo used to, or you can get the system working for you. As a captain you're working out which refs need to have their ego stroked, and which ones to pretty much influence. Croker doesn't have the attributes to do this IMO, simply because he is such a good bloke. As I say, I dunno if we have anyone who can do what I say. It isn't just about being a superstar of the game IMO, it's more about working out personalities and constantly advocating. I despise bullying, but you pretty much need to be a bully.
Last edited by Woodgers on September 6, 2015, 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:50 pm
Northern Raider wrote:I'm not calling Croker an Origin player but if Will Hopoate is then i won't say he never will be.

Good point... I think Croker got the points decision over the origin player today
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 5:54 pm
:lol: with all due respect and I say this conceding that you were undoubtedly a great, great captain

And I say this with many years of service as captain of my own park footy teams, but I think captaining your park soccer team and dealing with volunteer park soccer referees and captaining an NRL FG team and dealing with professional and somewhat famous referees is a little bit more different then your posts suggests.

You watch the games, you watch what Smith,JT and Gallen get away with and how they are treated, as opposed to how Croker and say Lewis Brown or Simon Mannering is treated it's nothing at all to do with how they advocate. It's just officials lending their ear to superstars

As said they just as dismissive to him as they are to every other captain save a select few who all happen to play for the Kangaroos
And then they get waved away like they are scum half the time

The NRL officials are generally just dismissive, disrespectful ****. It's been an issue raised by coaches and captains alike for many years
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:02 pm
The commentators did mention after each of the Radradra tries that Croker was questioning the refs about the ruling.. So it's not like Croker was just bending over and spreading them after each of the questionable calls.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:11 pm
Pigman wrote::lol: with all due respect and I say this conceding that you were undoubtedly a great, great captain

And I say this with many years of service as captain of my own park footy teams, but I think captaining your park soccer team and dealing with volunteer park soccer referees and captaining an NRL FG team and dealing with professional and somewhat famous referees is a little bit more different then your posts suggests.

You watch the games, you watch what Smith,JT and Gallen get away with and how they are treated, as opposed to how Croker and say Lewis Brown or Simon Mannering is treated it's nothing at all to do with how they advocate. It's just officials lending their ear to superstars

As said they just as dismissive to him as they are to every other captain save a select few who all happen to play for the Kangaroos
And then they get waved away like they are scum half the time

The NRL officials are generally just dismissive, disrespectful ****. It's been an issue raised by coaches and captains alike for many years


Mate I wasn't tooting my own horn, I was merely discussing aspects of how you get results as a captain. You're discussing one aspect, that when a captain complains, what happens. I'm talking about what you want them to do over the 80. Now I understand that some people give it to Croker more than they should and you're firmly in the camp defending any critique, but surely a bloke who watches as many different sports as you do can comprehend that perhaps the politest bloke in history may not be that great at this aspect?

Yes, park football isn't NRL but you missed my point. You manage a Bill Harrigan as a Captain differently to Gavin Badger. Shane Hayne to Perenara. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

Now, was Ruben Wiki a good Captain? Yes. Did he have those attributes? No. But he was the type that led by example. A smallish centre can't do that.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:17 pm
This is also his first year as captain and he is 24 still... He will be better again next year because of it and if the refs remember him as not a total **** I don't see the downside...
Get Stuart to realise he is holding the club back and step down to player manager!
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:17 pm
Thing is with these guys is I don't think people really understand the level of arrogance these NRL refs have
My cousin is a friend of a friend of Gavin Badger and is frequently on the piss with him and if what he tells me is accurate, it's no wonder the officiating of this game is at an all time low
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:23 pm
I'm wondering how people can judge Croker's captaincy qualities from the grandstand or in front of the TV. Seems most criticism is that he doesn't whinge enough.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:31 pm
Woodgers wrote:
Pigman wrote::lol: with all due respect and I say this conceding that you were undoubtedly a great, great captain

And I say this with many years of service as captain of my own park footy teams, but I think captaining your park soccer team and dealing with volunteer park soccer referees and captaining an NRL FG team and dealing with professional and somewhat famous referees is a little bit more different then your posts suggests.

You watch the games, you watch what Smith,JT and Gallen get away with and how they are treated, as opposed to how Croker and say Lewis Brown or Simon Mannering is treated it's nothing at all to do with how they advocate. It's just officials lending their ear to superstars

As said they just as dismissive to him as they are to every other captain save a select few who all happen to play for the Kangaroos
And then they get waved away like they are scum half the time

The NRL officials are generally just dismissive, disrespectful ****. It's been an issue raised by coaches and captains alike for many years


Mate I wasn't tooting my own horn, I was merely discussing aspects of how you get results as a captain. You're discussing one aspect, that when a captain complains, what happens. I'm talking about what you want them to do over the 80. Now I understand that some people give it to Croker more than they should and you're firmly in the camp defending any critique, but surely a bloke who watches as many different sports as you do can comprehend that perhaps the politest bloke in history may not be that great at this aspect?

Yes, park football isn't NRL but you missed my point. You manage a Bill Harrigan as a Captain differently to Gavin Badger. Shane Hayne to Perenara. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

Now, was Ruben Wiki a good Captain? Yes. Did he have those attributes? No. But he was the type that led by example. A smallish centre can't do that.


I perfectly understand the concept I just think you must not watch much NRL these days, because if this what happening to Croker and only Croker, I might agree but it just doesn't

Either the NRL have an entire league of too polite captains or its the officials who are the problem but it is league wide that referees being dismissive and disrespect of captains is an issue

I mean I watch a lot of leagues and agree that you have to handle different people differently, and then I watch RL and it seems no matter who it is, and what their method, the captain gets a whole lot of "no, the penalties here, go away" and "we're not discussing that, the penalty is here, go away"
It's every game to every captain, save for basically JT, Smith and Gallen who can seemingly do as they please

As for Rubin Wiki, you could not have illustrated my point more perfectly. We can all agree he was a great captain, but as you know it wasn't like we were getting any more or less 50/50 calls back then as opposed to now. So we have a great captain in Wiki and a apparently **** captain in Croker, with guys like Campese, Woolford and Schif in between and the results have largely been the same

The fact is you simply do not get respect from the officials in the NRL unless you're an elite superstar player, that's what this boils down too and it's really blatantly obvious to any one who watches enough footy
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:35 pm
Northern Raider wrote:I'm wondering how people can judge Croker's captaincy qualities from the grandstand or in front of the TV. Seems most criticism is that he doesn't whinge enough.


NR, I conceded that judging point upfront. I'm more or less working on what I can see, and making an assumption based on the player's personality.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:36 pm
Woodgers wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:I'm wondering how people can judge Croker's captaincy qualities from the grandstand or in front of the TV. Seems most criticism is that he doesn't whinge enough.


NR, I conceded that judging point upfront. I'm more or less working on what I can see, and making an assumption based on the player's personality.

So you really shouldn't be portraying your assumption as fact.
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:47 pm
Pigman wrote:
Woodgers wrote:
Pigman wrote::lol: with all due respect and I say this conceding that you were undoubtedly a great, great captain

And I say this with many years of service as captain of my own park footy teams, but I think captaining your park soccer team and dealing with volunteer park soccer referees and captaining an NRL FG team and dealing with professional and somewhat famous referees is a little bit more different then your posts suggests.

You watch the games, you watch what Smith,JT and Gallen get away with and how they are treated, as opposed to how Croker and say Lewis Brown or Simon Mannering is treated it's nothing at all to do with how they advocate. It's just officials lending their ear to superstars

As said they just as dismissive to him as they are to every other captain save a select few who all happen to play for the Kangaroos
And then they get waved away like they are scum half the time

The NRL officials are generally just dismissive, disrespectful ****. It's been an issue raised by coaches and captains alike for many years


Mate I wasn't tooting my own horn, I was merely discussing aspects of how you get results as a captain. You're discussing one aspect, that when a captain complains, what happens. I'm talking about what you want them to do over the 80. Now I understand that some people give it to Croker more than they should and you're firmly in the camp defending any critique, but surely a bloke who watches as many different sports as you do can comprehend that perhaps the politest bloke in history may not be that great at this aspect?

Yes, park football isn't NRL but you missed my point. You manage a Bill Harrigan as a Captain differently to Gavin Badger. Shane Hayne to Perenara. It's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

Now, was Ruben Wiki a good Captain? Yes. Did he have those attributes? No. But he was the type that led by example. A smallish centre can't do that.


I perfectly understand the concept I just think you must not watch much NRL these days, because if this what happening to Croker and only Croker, I might agree but it just doesn't

Either the NRL have an entire league of too polite captains or its the officials who are the problem but it is league wide that referees being dismissive and disrespect of captains is an issue

I mean I watch a lot of leagues and agree that you have to handle different people differently, and then I watch RL and it seems no matter who it is, and what their method, the captain gets a whole lot of "no, the penalties here, go away" and "we're not discussing that, the penalty is here, go away"
It's every game to every captain, save for basically JT, Smith and Gallen who can seemingly do as they please

As for Rubin Wiki, you could not have illustrated my point more perfectly. We can all agree he was a great captain, but as you know it wasn't like we were getting any more or less 50/50 calls back then as opposed to now. So we have a great captain in Wiki and a apparently **** captain in Croker, with guys like Campese, Woolford and Schif in between and the results have largely been the same

The fact is you simply do not get respect from the officials in the NRL unless you're an elite superstar player, that's what this boils down too and it's really blatantly obvious to any one who watches enough footy


See this is where the debate gets messy because while it doesn't happen to just Croker, my point of view is that we as a football club get an disproportional amount of horrible calls regularly, and you don't. The officials might wave away the majority of captains, but for a variety of reasons not all directly related to Croker, it's easy to give us the **** and they do. So can you go too far like Campo used to? Yes. Can you been too meek? yes also. I'm actually not asking for perfection and Ultima above is right, he is just 24 so could improve this aspect also. But I will say one thing, me saying we could do better in this area is no more right or wrong than the people claiming he's doing a good job. On what basis could anyone claim that?
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:49 pm
Well for one, his coach and his team mates seem to think he's doing a pretty good job and speak highly of him as a captain. Given those are the people who would actually know what sort of captain and person he is or isnt, I'd say that tips the scales pretty heavily one way. ;)
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:49 pm
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:You're kidding right. There are posters on this forum who see him as an origin centre with the ball playing of Lyon and the defence of Matt Cooper. You're telling me that they aren't "pro-Croker"?


I see strawmans
They are everywhere

No one has ever said that or even suggested it. What has been said is the criticism he cops is only very rarely warranted.

You don't actually know what a strawman is do you? I'm pretty sure that you just like the expression. And yes they do, have and will make dumb comparisons like that.
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Steve Walters
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:50 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
Woodgers wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:I'm wondering how people can judge Croker's captaincy qualities from the grandstand or in front of the TV. Seems most criticism is that he doesn't whinge enough.


NR, I conceded that judging point upfront. I'm more or less working on what I can see, and making an assumption based on the player's personality.

So you really shouldn't be portraying your assumption as fact.


I don't think I was doing that NR, I was giving my assessment / opinion on it.

But this is what I said in my first post in here today, i'm finding that people are too black and white on this particular player. I'm not even calling for his head, i'm simply doing what the forum is here for and discussing matters on the Canberra Raiders. It appears some people can't accept any discussion that critiques this bloke.
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Member No: 3010. Bay 28. Row KK. Seat 6.

Michael wrote:
If life has taught me anything, its that any combination of mohawk, moustache, mullet, beard and the general attitude of a complete pig will get you a long way in that regard.

That's the sound of the men, working on the chain gannnng! Ohhhhh agghhhh
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:52 pm
Depends. If the critiques are fair and reasonable, no problem
For what ever reason this bloke attracts more unfair and unreasonable critiques from his fan base than others.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 6:55 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:You're kidding right. There are posters on this forum who see him as an origin centre with the ball playing of Lyon and the defence of Matt Cooper. You're telling me that they aren't "pro-Croker"?


I see strawmans
They are everywhere

No one has ever said that or even suggested it. What has been said is the criticism he cops is only very rarely warranted.

You don't actually know what a strawman is do you? I'm pretty sure that you just like the expression. And yes they do, have and will make dumb comparisons like that.


I know exactly what a straw man is. It's when one side of the arguement attribute the other with a ridiculously exagerated intrepration of their side in order to misrespresent their position

Which is precisely what you've done claiming people think Croker has the ball playing skills of Lyon and the defense of Matt Cooper.. Happy for you to provide me a quote that shows someone claiming that though. Otherwise - Strawman ;)
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Ruben Wiki
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Croker
PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 7:07 pm
When asked about the points scoring record:

"I'd give it all back to be playing next week."


And numerous parts from articles this afternoon:

He nailed that attempt and according to his coach, it was no fluke.

"I tell Jarrod I never take it for granted what he does," Stuart said.

"I appreciate having a goal-kicker and a footballer such as Jarrod as captain.

"He thoroughly deserves winning the point-scoring award for the season but nobody sees the effort he puts in behind the scenes, nobody sees the hard work he puts in and the hours and hours of preparation and the work he does.

"His attitude and work ethic shows young kids what you can do if you work hard."

Meanwhile Croker said he was calm during the attempt, despite the magnitude of the moment and the stand full of loud opposition fans behind him.

"I wasn't too bad, I was pretty relaxed," he said.

"I spoke to the boys after we got behind with five minutes remaining and we spoke about enjoying the moment and if we come out on top, we'll enjoy it even more."


"He done well the POM, although he cheats in cards a bit but other than that, he's been one of our best players this year and probably goes a bit unnoticed," Croker said.

"Our recruits have been great and I spoke on the field about how good a leader Hodgo is and how good it is to have him in our leadership group. He's just fitted in so well here so it's good to have him."


^ What a bludger of a captain... Sack him immediately!!!!

Honestly though I really would like to know who else has as much heart for the club and support from with-in it that you would prefer as your captain...
Get Stuart to realise he is holding the club back and step down to player manager!
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Steve Walters
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 7:09 pm
Pigman wrote:Well for one, his coach and his team mates seem to think he's doing a pretty good job and speak highly of him as a captain. Given those are the people who would actually know what sort of captain and person he is or isnt, I'd say that tips the scales pretty heavily one way. ;)


Perhaps. Or he's you know, a polite guy who has been at the club a long time so gets along with everyone and helps the coach and doesn't upset anyone. You think anyone is actually going to come out and say anything?

FTR, I said first up that i'm not sure whether he's good or bad and that I don't know if we have anyone better.
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Member No: 3010. Bay 28. Row KK. Seat 6.

Michael wrote:
If life has taught me anything, its that any combination of mohawk, moustache, mullet, beard and the general attitude of a complete pig will get you a long way in that regard.

That's the sound of the men, working on the chain gannnng! Ohhhhh agghhhh
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Steve Walters
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 7:16 pm
Pigman wrote:Depends. If the critiques are fair and reasonable, no problem
For what ever reason this bloke attracts more unfair and unreasonable critiques from his fan base than others.


What rot. Some people on here go over the top and even a pretty neutral bloke like myself on this player would argue against those comments.

It's become clear to me that you can't say anything even remotely negative about this bloke without the cavalry arriving and trying to shout it down as a collective. He has deficiencies in his game the same as any other player and they get discussed, being the leader he might have a few more aspects to discuss. Which is the point of an online footy forum! We can talk about the actual football 12% of the time.

I'm not saying anything directly about you Nicko, i've known you a fair while but you can take it from me that i'll just call it as I see it. I don't actually care if it goes against what other people say, even if I know them or see them at the games. My online popularity is about as important to me as the used by dates on the yoghurts in my fridge!
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Member No: 3010. Bay 28. Row KK. Seat 6.

Michael wrote:
If life has taught me anything, its that any combination of mohawk, moustache, mullet, beard and the general attitude of a complete pig will get you a long way in that regard.

That's the sound of the men, working on the chain gannnng! Ohhhhh agghhhh
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 7:21 pm
Well i don't know if he's a good or bad captain based on what i see on TV. There's not enough evidence either way.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: September 6, 2015, 7:23 pm
Woodgers is right: The Raiders get a disproportionate share of abysmal refereeing calls.

Nick is right: There's nothing Jarrod Croker can do about it. The refs only listen to Smith, Thurston and the like.
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