NRL Draft 2008: Who would your team have picked?

 
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 5:02 pm
http://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/nrl-dr ... 7501034434


So we lose 3 quality juniors and pick up Eddie Paea :lol:
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 5:11 pm
Swings and roundabouts. A year later Manly probably would've lost JWH, Foran, DCE and Bujhrer. Last year we would've picked up Elgey or Moera and lost not much at all.

Hard to see where the players come from with this model though.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 5:25 pm
Raidersrawesome wrote:http://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/nrl-draft-2008-who-would-your-team-have-picked/story-fndv2us0-1227501034434


So we lose 3 quality juniors and pick up Eddie Paea :lol:


That's what'll happen under the new rookie pick system. There's nothing in it for Canberra.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 5:36 pm
I'm not sure there is nothing in it for us to be honest. Here is a hypothetical draft for us since 2008.

2009 - Eddie Paea
2010 - 4th pick - Probably kept Waddell as we needed a hooker.
2011 - 9th pick - Segeyaro after Waddell bombed.
2012 - 2nd pick - Taoumololo, too good to not take early
2013 - 10th pick - Probably kept Edrick or Wighton
2014 - 4th pick - Tried to keep Milford depending on eligibility. Otherwise DWZ or Cartwright
2015 - 2nd pick - Moera, considering we signed Whitehead not much later
Next year? If we tanked we could probably get Tom Trbovich.

We would've lost a few players but probably wouldn't have lost Papalii or Vaughan a long the way as they didn't have huge profiles out of 20's. Wighton probably would've gone and a few others who turned out average or mediocre.

If the rules were you couldnt play until drafted out of 20s and you had to stay with you club for 4 years like AFL we probably would still have Milford for his best football as he would only have got picked this year. We also would probably not have had to boost the egos of juniors like Dugan with big overs deals early on. So we might come out of it better overall.

Of course it's hypothetical as the players wont be there if we don't have any incentive to develop. It would definitely lead to tanking as well.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 5:48 pm
The draft is a dog of a concept.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 5:56 pm
Draft is a wonderful concept
Bring it on
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 6:01 pm
I actually believe a properly run draft would be good for the game
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 6:12 pm
If anyone thinks the Raiders would end up with better junior talent through a draft system than we currently do is having a laugh.

Draft or no draft, the success of a football team pretty much relies on good recruiting and roster management. No NRL team is going to have success on the back of a draft. The same fundamental imbalances across the competition would still exist. Young players who are drafted will still want to break their contracts to head "home". It happens all the time in the AFL.

Using drafts as an equaliser of talent is an absolute myth, unless you are talking about a sport like basketball, where 1 player can almost transform an entire roster.
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Bradley Clyde
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 6:16 pm
I like the idea, but I think every club should get an opportunity to select one player that is exempt from the draft.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 6:49 pm
Seiffert82 wrote:If anyone thinks the Raiders would end up with better junior talent through a draft system than we currently do is having a laugh.

Draft or no draft, the success of a football team pretty much relies on good recruiting and roster management. No NRL team is going to have success on the back of a draft. The same fundamental imbalances across the competition would still exist. Young players who are drafted will still want to break their contracts to head "home". It happens all the time in the AFL.

Using drafts as an equaliser of talent is an absolute myth, unless you are talking about a sport like basketball, where 1 player can almost transform an entire roster.



It would depend on how good our scouts were, and how good the others were. Good teams always seem to have good drafts. Baltimore Ravens havent had a bad draft in **** 20 years or something. Looking at edwahu's post above, it looks like we'd have made out pretty well out of a draft tbh.
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Jason Croker
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 6:53 pm
Pigman wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:If anyone thinks the Raiders would end up with better junior talent through a draft system than we currently do is having a laugh.

Draft or no draft, the success of a football team pretty much relies on good recruiting and roster management. No NRL team is going to have success on the back of a draft. The same fundamental imbalances across the competition would still exist. Young players who are drafted will still want to break their contracts to head "home". It happens all the time in the AFL.

Using drafts as an equaliser of talent is an absolute myth, unless you are talking about a sport like basketball, where 1 player can almost transform an entire roster.



It would depend on how good our scouts were, and how good the others were. Good teams always seem to have good drafts. Baltimore Ravens havent had a bad draft in **** 20 years or something. Looking at edwahu's post above, it looks like we'd have made out pretty well out of a draft tbh.


Edwahu's post doesn't show who we would have lost in that time though
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 8:35 pm
Current concept isn't working.
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John Ferguson
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 8:45 pm
dubby wrote:Current concept isn't working.

It's working brilliantly for some teams...
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 8:57 pm
You do start to think what have we got to lose?
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Clinton Schifcofske
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PostPosted: August 27, 2015, 11:42 pm
A rookie draft wouldn't work without a fair free agency system to accompany it. A draft that is accompanied by the current free agency system that is biased towards teams with greater third party potential would only increase the gaps btw the good and bad teams.

Free agency wise, I personally like the NBA system where the team with player rights can offer more years and money than rival teams. This encourages players to stay with the franchise that drafted them. This of course wouldn't work with the current salary cap structure, so buggered if I know.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:47 am
Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:53 am
A draft would be great for us IMO. It's the one way to make the distribution of junior talent relatively fair, or at least reliant on a teams ability to pick out talent. Designed well (the mix of restricted free agency etc), it would absolutely suit us.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:07 am
Dr Zaius wrote:Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?


Yeah I mean, we've never had a bust in our lives. Every young stud we've ever produced has gone on to be a stud NRL player :/
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:10 am
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?


Yeah I mean, we've never had a bust in our lives. Every young stud we've ever produced has gone on to be a stud NRL player :/

I think that you are missing the point
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Jason Croker
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:18 am
The thing with a draft is you wouldn't be invested emotionally with the young guys as you are now.

Yeah you might lose a Dugan or Fensom but on the same day we could have picked up a Hunt or Matalino.

I like the idea of a draft. The extra excitement it would bring in the off season and the discussion and bagging of the club when we draft a numpty on the GH alone.

With the draft they need to follow suit with the NBA and the club owns the player. They have first say and have strict conditions that a player can't rooftop Dugan and end up at another club.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:21 am
edwahu wrote:Swings and roundabouts. A year later Manly probably would've lost JWH, Foran, DCE and Bujhrer. Last year we would've picked up Elgey or Moera and lost not much at all.

Hard to see where the players come from with this model though.


This would suck for Elgey - the one team he looks like Andrew Johns against picks him up and he has to resort to being Jason Martin-level for the rest of his short career.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:37 am
Stuat wrote:A draft would be great for us IMO. It's the one way to make the distribution of junior talent relatively fair, or at least reliant on a teams ability to pick out talent. Designed well (the mix of restricted free agency etc), it would absolutely suit us.


Where do the juniors come from though? American sports have college sportd to rely on. The NRL could take over and provide funding to all junior clubs but that's a big undertaking.

How does it work in the AFL?
Last edited by edwahu on August 28, 2015, 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:37 am
Dr Zaius wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?


Yeah I mean, we've never had a bust in our lives. Every young stud we've ever produced has gone on to be a stud NRL player :/

I think that you are missing the point


Actually, i think when you isolate a single season in a draft format and say "Oh but look, we'd have lost XYZ and only got back ABC", i think it's the good Doctor who has missed the point... the draft is not a one year deal ;)
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:39 am
The Draft would be good for us next year but we would also probably be tanking. Although we are doing a good job of that anyway.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:40 am
I wouldn't be opposed to a draft but I think a sliding scale of discounts for long serving players needs to accompany it. The longer a player stays with the club the bigger the discount starting with 10% after 4 years, 20% at 6 years, 30% at 8 years and 40% for the 10th year and any additional year with the club.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:52 am
Their example is one year. We lost 3 good players and got given a dud and they are looking back with hindsight as well.

A real draft would be different , but this is mock mini draft and they could have done anything but they give us a player who play reggies.

Cowboys get Ben Hunt

Us and Parra get 2 players who didnt make the step up
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:57 am
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?


Yeah I mean, we've never had a bust in our lives. Every young stud we've ever produced has gone on to be a stud NRL player :/

I think that you are missing the point


Actually, i think when you isolate a single season in a draft format and say "Oh but look, we'd have lost XYZ and only got back ABC", i think it's the good Doctor who has missed the point... the draft is not a one year deal ;)


Oh no, I understand that it's a snapshot
But there really is no benefit in a draft for a club with a good development system. We're going to lose more than we gain, and we're in no position to do that.
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:11 am
edwahu wrote:
Stuat wrote:A draft would be great for us IMO. It's the one way to make the distribution of junior talent relatively fair, or at least reliant on a teams ability to pick out talent. Designed well (the mix of restricted free agency etc), it would absolutely suit us.


Where do the juniors come from though? American sports have college sportd to rely on. The NRL could take over and provide funding to all junior clubs but that's a big undertaking.

How does it work in the AFL?


I'm pretty sure in the AFL, junior development is done by local clubs (supported by clubs, parents, grants etc), much like most junior sporting competitions in the country be they league, football or AFL. The AFL oversees all that setting the framework and also plays a pretty big role in running AusKick and talent pathways (development squads, U18s competitions etc etc) growing the game and junior bass and providing pathways for juniors to the AFL.

That model is one that works and would be more than doable by the NRL. Yes, it would mean a far larger involvement and investment in junior development from the NRL as a whole, but in the end that is probably a good thing, with funding etc less arbitrarily assigned (in the NRL, the reliance on clubs leads to some spending big bucks on that stuff, other pretty much nothing). In the modern professional game, I personally don't think it makes sense for clubs (franchises) to be responsible for junior development and growing the game and junior base. The incentives simply aren't there and to be perfectly honest, clubs should (and are, like us) focus on winning NRL games, not setting the groundwork for the long term health of the game.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 10:48 am
Dr Zaius wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?


Yeah I mean, we've never had a bust in our lives. Every young stud we've ever produced has gone on to be a stud NRL player :/

I think that you are missing the point


Actually, i think when you isolate a single season in a draft format and say "Oh but look, we'd have lost XYZ and only got back ABC", i think it's the good Doctor who has missed the point... the draft is not a one year deal ;)


Oh no, I understand that it's a snapshot
But there really is no benefit in a draft for a club with a good development system. We're going to lose more than we gain, and we're in no position to do that.


I really dont think that's so. I mean looking at Edwahu's post, we might end up with Seg, Lolo, Wighton, Milford/DWZ/Cartwright. Those guys can all play and all of them are better than the current players we have thanks to our development.

I mean those guys are pretty **** incredible. Also part of drafting is scouting, and the reason we are a good development club is because we have a good scouting system, i'd like to think we'd have seen the limitations in Eddie Paea's game and passed on him, the same way good AFL/NFL/NBA clubs do. It's not a system where you HAVE to take Eddie Paea. We could have passed on him and taken someone who was a good player

The only reason a draft system wouldnt work for us is if our management are **** hopeless when it comes to player evaluation. There is a reason why even in leagues where there is a draft, that well runs teams always seem to be good and poorly run teams always seem to be bad. As we've seen ourselves with guys like Travis Waddell, Eddie Paea, Joe Williams etc al projecting juniors into FG is not an exact science

Now that all being said, where i do agree with the detractors of the draft is you cant do a draft when clubs are still responsible for development. You'd HAVE to take it off them to make it work, current structure it cant work because clubs like ours will always get the rawer end of the deal and club's like the roosters will always put nothing in and just collect the spoils. Under the current system we'd never get a fair deal because clubs like ours Penrith, Newcastle, Parramatta and Broncos would do all this work to develop players and get absolutely rapped by the Storms/Roosters of the world and then those clubs lose incentive to put the proper effort into that development and it's the product that loses out long term.
You'd have to make the national body responsible for the development of players nation wide

A draft would require a SERIOUS and significant overhaul of the governance of our game and would IMO, required clubs to become NRL level franchise style entities, which i personally would love, but i know a lot of others would hate
Last edited by Pigman on August 28, 2015, 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 10:53 am
I would challenge whether we have a good development system anymore as well. It's looking lean next year and it's pretty slim pickings last year and this year.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 10:57 am
edwahu wrote:I would challenge whether we have a good development system anymore as well. It's looking lean next year and it's pretty slim pickings last year and this year.


It's quite alarming how noticeable the drop off has been since the Raiders lost Milford and brought in some somewhat proven guys. It really seems like that has been the straw that broke the camels' back
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 11:05 am
edwahu wrote:I would challenge whether we have a good development system anymore as well. It's looking lean next year and it's pretty slim pickings last year and this year.


I think the issue is you're seeing some guys out injured and we are running 17 year olds in U20s. We have lots of good players coming through.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 11:34 am
This is the issue I have. For all the noise that there has been about a draft, there hasn't even been a whisper about the NRL taking over junior development. I'm not opposed to a draft at it's purist level, but that doesn't seem to be on the table. We'll get screwed, more so than we currently do. For every quality junior we pick up from Penrith, we'll lose two or three to the Roosters or Souths.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 12:35 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:Lose Dugan, Fensom and Justin Carney and pick up Eddie Paea. Well I'm sold. I mean who the **** is Eddie Paea?


And Dugan and Carney worked out well for us didn't it?

And Fensom could be any other player.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 12:53 pm
Again, I think that you are missing the point
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