NRL Draft 2008: Who would your team have picked?

 
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 12:59 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:This is the issue I have. For all the noise that there has been about a draft, there hasn't even been a whisper about the NRL taking over junior development. I'm not opposed to a draft at it's purist level, but that doesn't seem to be on the table. We'll get screwed, more so than we currently do. For every quality junior we pick up from Penrith, we'll lose two or three to the Roosters or Souths.


If that's your major gripe with the draft concept, i completely agree.
I share those concerns. You can't go half arsed into this type of thing... all in or nothing
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 1:03 pm
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:This is the issue I have. For all the noise that there has been about a draft, there hasn't even been a whisper about the NRL taking over junior development. I'm not opposed to a draft at it's purist level, but that doesn't seem to be on the table. We'll get screwed, more so than we currently do. For every quality junior we pick up from Penrith, we'll lose two or three to the Roosters or Souths.


If that's your major gripe with the draft concept, i completely agree.
I share those concerns. You can't go half arsed into this type of thing... all in or nothing


And guess what? It looks like the NRL are going in half ****.
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Bradley Clyde
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 2:06 pm
The NRL are incapable of running a chook raffle let alone junior development.

A draft system is a slap in the face to the Raiders who invest heavily in time and money in juniours.

I'd much prefer the NRL do what their suppose to do, and that is run a competition which is supposed to be fair and equal for all involved, and that starts with an equality in the salary cap.

NRL :lol:
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 2:13 pm
The draft would be a slap in the face but the current system is repeated kicks to the groin. I'll take any change over the status quo.
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 2:44 pm
LP Raider wrote:The NRL are incapable of running a chook raffle let alone junior development.

A draft system is a slap in the face to the Raiders who invest heavily in time and money in juniours.

I'd much prefer the NRL do what their suppose to do, and that is run a competition which is supposed to be fair and equal for all involved, and that starts with an equality in the salary cap.

NRL :lol:


Haha! The raiders hardly benefit from the way things are now. I mean you only have to look at our results over the last 15 years to see all the money we invest in junior development (or have) has been an incredibly poor investment. It's absolutely no wonder we are talking about pulling most of our funding, it returns Jack **** for us.

A draft would be far better for us. Any sensible plan will have restricted free agency etc etc attached, meaning we will be able to keep hold of talents like Milford (because no other club will be able to sign them for the first 4 years and up till say 8 will need to provide compensation if they do) or at least be adequately compensated in the form of draft picks and/or trades.

It's a no brainer for a club like us. The current system plays into the hands of the roosters, Souths etc etc and works against clubs like ours.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 4:57 pm
Cannot have a draft while clubs are footing the bill for junior development without compensation. If they bring it in then what little advantage clubs like Raiders, Panthers etc have from their current efforts will be completely eliminated. They will therefore cut back all their development programs. No point in investing if all teams get the same opportunity to pick the gems from the talent pool.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 5:02 pm
Given the salary cap is completely full of holes, which allow one club to offer half that of another... and the player goes to the first club due to third party deals.

What's on the table at present is not a draft, it will only allow the rich clubs to do this at rookie pick time.

Every single advantage the Raiders had will have then been eliminated.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 5:44 pm
As i stated before, if they bring in a draft they would need to have contracts like the NBA. The club owns the player so it will make no difference if the TP monies are better elsewhere.

Out of draft the club gets say 2 years with an option of a third. If it isn't working out they trade or cut ties. If it is they have first choice of an upgraded extension.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 5:57 pm
Manchild wrote:As i stated before, if they bring in a draft they would need to have contracts like the NBA. The club owns the player so it will make no difference if the TP monies are better elsewhere.

Out of draft the club gets say 2 years with an option of a third. If it isn't working out they trade or cut ties. If it is they have first choice of an upgraded extension.


I don't follow the NBA closely but what do you mean with the first sentence? TPAs usually come from supporters like the Obeids or any of the Thoroughbreds / Chairmans club / Russel Crowe fan club connections, so how would this situation change? Or do you mean the club gets the player for a set number of years?
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David Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 6:29 pm
In the NBA when a rookie gets drafted no matter where they get drafted they get a 2 year contract with 2 year option to be decided by the team (essentially a release without paying them)
The rookie can either accept the contract or retire immediately and go to the Euroleague or Chinese league.
There are also restricted Free Agents where if it fits in with the salary cap the club losing a player can match any offer given by other teams and the player gets no choice.
Also if a contract is longer than 4 years when you resign someone you can go as much above the salary cap as you like.
Also TPAs are not mandated by the NBA.
Just wanted to clear these things up.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 6:49 pm
Discussing a draft for the NRL is all very well, but the NRL has already decided, apparently, that it is "not consistent with rugby league culture". So the "rookie pick" involves the player concerned being allowed to choose which club he goes to, if more than one club is interested.

So we know what's going to happen under this arrangement. The clubs with access to third party deals will win out every time... or even the prospect of third party deals in a couple of years.

Say there's an 18 year old kid at Manly, who is the Raiders No. 1 rookie pick, and Manly want him too. What gets him to Canberra? Say there's a kid at Orange, who is the Raiders No. 1 rookie pick, and Manly want him too. What gets him to Canberra?

What the Raiders have been able to offer young players is a very good development program, gets them here, they find the place is actually good to live in...

What Shane Richardson's master plan will likely deliver to Canberra is one of the worst crop of rookies.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:00 pm
Any time 3rd party deals are linked to a player being at a specific club they cease to become 3rd party deals and should count towards the cap. Simple way to fix the imbalance.
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David Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:06 pm
Oh yeah and all development is done by the NBA.
We have a decision. We're going to the board.

You can see that Jarrod Croker initiates the contact.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:07 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Any time 3rd party deals are linked to a player being at a specific club they cease to become 3rd party deals and should count towards the cap. Simple way to fix the imbalance.


That's actually the current rule and has proven impossible to police, so IMO they should actually be entirely outlawed, perhaps adjusting the cap to account for the amount of third party deals at the club with the lowest level of such agreements.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:08 pm
Northern Raider wrote:Any time 3rd party deals are linked to a player being at a specific club they cease to become 3rd party deals and should count towards the cap. Simple way to fix the imbalance.

Well it's supposed to work like that, but it's clearly not enforced.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:21 pm
The problem is that unless there is a direct link to the club like a sponsorship legally they are a third party. The NRL probably can't do much without ending up in court.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:23 pm
They could outlaw the practice, or limit it. At the moment, the salary cap is entirely ineffective in doing what it is supposed to do.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:26 pm
I'm sure that if they were serious about enforcing it they would find a way to
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 7:59 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:Any time 3rd party deals are linked to a player being at a specific club they cease to become 3rd party deals and should count towards the cap. Simple way to fix the imbalance.

Well it's supposed to work like that, but it's clearly not enforced.

I thought the only restriction on TPAs was that they couldn't be from an existing sponsor or affiliate.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:01 pm
I could be wrong, but I thought that they are not allowed to be specific to the player playing at a particular club.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:03 pm
Stuat wrote:
LP Raider wrote:The NRL are incapable of running a chook raffle let alone junior development.

A draft system is a slap in the face to the Raiders who invest heavily in time and money in juniours.

I'd much prefer the NRL do what their suppose to do, and that is run a competition which is supposed to be fair and equal for all involved, and that starts with an equality in the salary cap.

NRL :lol:


Haha! The raiders hardly benefit from the way things are now. I mean you only have to look at our results over the last 15 years to see all the money we invest in junior development (or have) has been an incredibly poor investment. It's absolutely no wonder we are talking about pulling most of our funding, it returns Jack **** for us.

A draft would be far better for us. Any sensible plan will have restricted free agency etc etc attached, meaning we will be able to keep hold of talents like Milford (because no other club will be able to sign them for the first 4 years and up till say 8 will need to provide compensation if they do) or at least be adequately compensated in the form of draft picks and/or trades.

It's a no brainer for a club like us. The current system plays into the hands of the roosters, Souths etc etc and works against clubs like ours.

Let's bring up Milford again, good grief people on here need to get a grip on reality the kid did not want to live in Canberra and made it it clear from his junior days.

The system does work in our favour atm, ( if the NRL cracks down on cheats ) unfortunately the star players which the club invested heavily turned into douchebags....fmd.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:13 pm
Sid wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:If anyone thinks the Raiders would end up with better junior talent through a draft system than we currently do is having a laugh.

Draft or no draft, the success of a football team pretty much relies on good recruiting and roster management. No NRL team is going to have success on the back of a draft. The same fundamental imbalances across the competition would still exist. Young players who are drafted will still want to break their contracts to head "home". It happens all the time in the AFL.

Using drafts as an equaliser of talent is an absolute myth, unless you are talking about a sport like basketball, where 1 player can almost transform an entire roster.



It would depend on how good our scouts were, and how good the others were. Good teams always seem to have good drafts. Baltimore Ravens havent had a bad draft in **** 20 years or something. Looking at edwahu's post above, it looks like we'd have made out pretty well out of a draft tbh.


Edwahu's post doesn't show who we would have lost in that time though

Exactly. It's all hypothetical, but for us we need a larger than average number of good quality juniors to offset the risk of losing players to "homesickness" etc.

I just think a draft completely undermines whatever small advantage we have with a large regional junior base. It's not good for the Raiders and it's not good for fans who want to see local juniors come through to play for their hometown team.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:50 pm
Of course it's hypothetical, but the point is those guys like Lolo, Seg, DWZ, Cartwright... i mean come on, i know we love to over-rate our own but lets get **** real about this, we wouldnt be facing our 3rd straight season out of the finals with those guys

TBH i just think people hate change, absolutely hate it. As any number of leagues around the world have proven, if the competition is set up with the right structure to use a draft, the only teams who are disadvantaged by it are teams with poor administration who draft poorly

If guys like Hammo are half as good as talent evaluators as we're lead to believe, we'd be much better off in a draft than we are now. Half the reason drafts exist in sports is to allow small market clubs (HELLLLLLLO! Are you listening?!) to compete with the teams that are Free Agent monsters. Again you need the structure of the game to be set up to use the draft properly but if it were, a draft would benefit us greatly.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 8:55 pm
This thread is depressing.

It enforces the fact the nrl is weak, short sighted, inconsistent, unfair and that certain clubs will always have an advantage over others.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:07 pm
Dr Zaius wrote:I could be wrong, but I thought that they are not allowed to be specific to the player playing at a particular club.

This is from the NRL website:

If a player is receiving money from any person as a way of inducing him to play for the club, then that money will be included in the Salary Cap.

Income that a player earns from parties not related to his club is generally not included in the Salary Cap, however, the details of the agreement must be advised to the club by the player.

The club must then get approval for the agreement from the Salary Cap Auditor in order for the remuneration to be excluded.

In 2006, the NRL also introduced an allowance for players who enter into Third Party Agreements with club sponsors, referred to as Marquee Player Agreements. In 2014, the Top 25 players are allowed to earn up to a maximum $600,000 in Marquee Player Agreements but the total payments under these agreements must not exceed $600,000 per club, otherwise any excess amounts are included in the salary cap.

Players are also able to enter into agreements with game sponsors, referred to as Sponsor Leveraging Agreements. There is no maximum amount and they are excluded from the salary cap.


It's ambiguous enough to mean very little in a real world environment. We're continually hearing about 3rd party deals being arranged as part of the deal to join a club.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:09 pm
Pigman wrote:Of course it's hypothetical, but the point is those guys like Lolo, Seg, DWZ, Cartwright... i mean come on, i know we love to over-rate our own but lets get **** real about this, we wouldnt be facing our 3rd straight season out of the finals with those guys

TBH i just think people hate change, absolutely hate it. As any number of leagues around the world have proven, if the competition is set up with the right structure to use a draft, the only teams who are disadvantaged by it are teams with poor administration who draft poorly

If guys like Hammo are half as good as talent evaluators as we're lead to believe, we'd be much better off in a draft than we are now. Half the reason drafts exist in sports is to allow small market clubs (HELLLLLLLO! Are you listening?!) to compete with the teams that are Free Agent monsters. Again you need the structure of the game to be set up to use the draft properly but if it were, a draft would benefit us greatly.


But Shane Richardson says there won't be a draft, as it is "inconsistent with rugby league culture" and we can't expect young players to move around the country.

It's not even where the debate is happening. HELLLOOO! Are you paying any attention?

What we should be discussing is what the NRL is currently planning, because it sure as hell is going to disadvantage the Raiders.
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:14 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:I could be wrong, but I thought that they are not allowed to be specific to the player playing at a particular club.

This is from the NRL website:

If a player is receiving money from any person as a way of inducing him to play for the club, then that money will be included in the Salary Cap.

Income that a player earns from parties not related to his club is generally not included in the Salary Cap, however, the details of the agreement must be advised to the club by the player.

The club must then get approval for the agreement from the Salary Cap Auditor in order for the remuneration to be excluded.

In 2006, the NRL also introduced an allowance for players who enter into Third Party Agreements with club sponsors, referred to as Marquee Player Agreements. In 2014, the Top 25 players are allowed to earn up to a maximum $600,000 in Marquee Player Agreements but the total payments under these agreements must not exceed $600,000 per club, otherwise any excess amounts are included in the salary cap.

Players are also able to enter into agreements with game sponsors, referred to as Sponsor Leveraging Agreements. There is no maximum amount and they are excluded from the salary cap.


It's ambiguous enough to mean very little in a real world environment. We're continually hearing about 3rd party deals being arranged as part of the deal to join a club.

There is also this:

Third Party Agreements
Third party agreements are payments made by companies directly to players. There is no restriction on the amount a player can earn through third party agreements where he is being paid for his own intellectual property, without the need to employ club logos or names and where the company involved is neither a club sponsor nor are they acting on behalf of a club to secure the player's services. An example of this is a player promoting a brand or product, for example, Billy Slater and Australian Bananas.
Many players have third party agreements that are outside the salary cap. Individual players registered third party agreements totalling in excess of $10 million in 2013.

All third party agreements must be registered and approved beforehand. This is to ensure that they do not become a way for clubs or players to use sponsors or third parties to undermine the salary cap and also for the game to ensure the protection of club and game intellectual property. There are provisions for club sponsors to enter into agreements with elite players under the Marquee Player Agreement allowance.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:20 pm
greeneyed wrote:What we should be discussing is what the NRL is currently planning, because it sure as hell is going to disadvantage the Raiders.


I dont really give a **** about what you feel we should be discussing tbh. :lol:
The discussion happening right now in this thread is about the merits of a draft in the NRL.

I've got absolutely no interest in discussing what the NRL currently has planned until such time as we actually know what they have planned, rather than reacting like chicken littles to "leaked details" reported almost exclusively by a gutter trash newpaper with an agenda against the current regime. Which is not to say what they are reporting is wrong by the way, for all i know what they have reported is 100% accurate and the fullest details as Shane Richardson and co have right now, but i dont know that and im sure as **** not going to take the Daily Telegraphs word for it.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:26 pm
Pigman wrote:
greeneyed wrote:What we should be discussing is what the NRL is currently planning, because it sure as hell is going to disadvantage the Raiders.


I dont really give a **** about what you feel we should be discussing tbh. :lol:
The discussion happening right now in this thread is about the merits of a draft in the NRL.

I've got absolutely no interest in discussing what the NRL currently has planned until such time as we actually know what they have planned, rather than reacting like chicken littles to "leaked details" reported almost exclusively by a gutter trash newpaper with an agenda against the current regime. Which is not to say what they are reporting is wrong by the way, for all i know what they have reported is 100% accurate and the fullest details as Shane Richardson and co have right now, but i dont know that and im sure as **** not going to take the Daily Telegraphs word for it.


By all means, continue with the ostrich impression.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: August 28, 2015, 9:32 pm
It's just a interesting discussion. Talking about how the NRL will screw us over next gets a bit depressing.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 7:15 am
So, Adam Treloar at the GWS Giants is now pressuring the club to trade him to a Victorian club. This follows in the footsteps of Tom Boyd, the first pick of the 2013 AFL draft who successfully requested to be traded to the Western Bulldogs.

Drafts are bollocks. They won't do a damn thing for the Raiders.
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:00 am
:lol: so two guys from two draft classes (thats two of what? 200 players) want out?

also the clubs own thier rights, they can trade them if they want or not, if they want. They are well within their rights to tell him him to get stuffed.

Also, we developed Carney, Milford, Dugan, etc al... and none of them stuck around. By your rationale time to scrub junior development?
Least of all to mention the failed attempts in free agency. Scrap that too.
Might as well wind it all up if a 1-2% failure rate is all thats needed to write something off
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 1:08 pm
Like it or not a Draft when run correctly... Works for all teams.
However for it to be run correctly, You also need correct Free Agency (restricted/unrestricted) etc, And a Trade system.

All of the hypothetical drafts are meaningless without them. As teams requirements can be fulfilled via trades aswell as draft picks. and this also enables teams to change pick order.

Also - any form of draft system MUST have a draft lottery to avoid teams blatantly tanking.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 6:16 am
Pigman wrote::lol: so two guys from two draft classes (thats two of what? 200 players) want out?

also the clubs own thier rights, they can trade them if they want or not, if they want. They are well within their rights to tell him him to get stuffed.

Also, we developed Carney, Milford, Dugan, etc al... and none of them stuck around. By your rationale time to scrub junior development?
Least of all to mention the failed attempts in free agency. Scrap that too.
Might as well wind it all up if a 1-2% failure rate is all thats needed to write something off

That's 2 examples from 1 club in the last 4 years off the top of my head. I couldn't be arsed doing a full blown analysis.

The point is, a draft doesn't guarantee you anything compared to relying on in-house junior development. Either way you can get lucky or burned. At least with in-house development you have some control over the players you bring through the system.
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 6:59 pm
LP Raider wrote:The NRL are incapable of running a chook raffle let alone junior development.


What happens? The Roosters always win?
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