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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:13 pm
If three players go to make a tackle and one bounces off but the other two make it, does it count as one missed tackle?
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:21 pm
papabear wrote:Yes a mistackle is a mistackle.

What is worse then a mistackle is a bad read.
Even worse then a bad read is not having your **** in the right spot to make a bad read in the first place.
Or a tackle you make and the guy gets over the try line and scores.

It is just one indicator of defensive quality there are thousands of others. Michael Jordan probably missed more shots then most NBA players ever, yet people dont hold this one statistic against him to try and preted he is a bad basketballer, because those people are not idiots.


He had a FG % of nearly 50% that's massive for basketball

Do you even know what you're talking about?
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:36 pm
Lenny Leonard wrote:
papabear wrote:Yes a mistackle is a mistackle.

What is worse then a mistackle is a bad read.
Even worse then a bad read is not having your **** in the right spot to make a bad read in the first place.
Or a tackle you make and the guy gets over the try line and scores.

It is just one indicator of defensive quality there are thousands of others. Michael Jordan probably missed more shots then most NBA players ever, yet people dont hold this one statistic against him to try and preted he is a bad basketballer, because those people are not idiots.


He had a FG % of nearly 50% that's massive for basketball

Do you even know what you're talking about?
and he shot the ball more than anyone else......hence missing the most shots
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:47 pm
Certainties for me are Wighton at fullback and Croker/Lee combo on left edge.

The other side is BJ vs Brenko for centre and Waqa vs Rapana for winger. I think BJ will be centre and brenko can spend time at Mounties learning the ins and outs of defence, waqa vs rapana for me could go either way, I love them both.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:48 pm
papabear wrote:
Matt wrote:
papabear wrote:Are you trolling me matt?


Nope. Stating facts

but you are only stating part of the "facts", without the full picture, all it does is show who is better at the mistackle stat. Not who is a better defender.

Its like deciding who is the best attacking player from the most tackles broken stat.

Now I am sure josh dugan beats out JT on that stat, but JT is by far a better attacking player.

You have to stop tries, you do that from yes making tackles, but also making strong decisions, working as a unit, making good first contact with your tackles, wrapping up the footy to sotp offloads, so on and so forth.

IMO either find more comprehensive stats to support your argument that rapana is the **** edge defender we have, or stop inferring it. Because tbh from watching the games he is probably our best (or maybe waqa).


No. I'm am actually stating facts. I'm just not stating the whole picture, as you have said, and I've explained that. I
said I don't have the right vs left edge stats, so all I can say it what NRL commentators say on a regular basis, and that is our right edge is worse in 2015.
In any of my posts did I say 'better defender' OR did I say 'on missed tackles'??? Pretty sure I said the latter.

As for the rest, that's up to you. Watching games I would have said Waqa is probably our most reliable, but statistically that doesn't stack up. As for Rapana, he is fearless and seems to thrive on contact, BUT, his decision making is not better than any of the rest.

If you wanted to look at tackles made vs tackles missed.
Croker - 420 vs 46 = 9.13 per miss.
Waqa - 225 vs 33 = 6.82 per miss
Eddy - 126 v 36 = 3.6 per miss
Rapana - 145 vs 43 = 3.37 per miss
BJ (ill go with 2015 total rather than just us) - 168 vs 37 = 4.54 per miss
Brenko - 36 vs 6 = 6 per miss (only 2 games though)
Croker wins hands down. Does that make him the best? Rapana is again at the bottom.
I'm sure you will say, 'but wingers don't make many tackles, and are left out to dry often, so of course they have big missed tackle counts'. While that is probably true, again, its not the while story.

So here is what I know.
1. According to the NRL commentators, who use more comprehensive stats, our right edge was worse this yr.
2. Rapana played right side (he did have a couple of games at fullback).
3. Rapana has the highest missed tackle count per game of our outside backs
4. He misses more tackles vs tackles made than any of our outside backs

Sure this isn't the whole story, BUT, so far isn't not going very well at all.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:49 pm
papabear wrote:Yes a mistackle is a mistackle.

What is worse then a mistackle is a bad read.
Even worse then a bad read is not having your **** in the right spot to make a bad read in the first place.
Or a tackle you make and the guy gets over the try line and scores.

It is just one indicator of defensive quality there are thousands of others. Michael Jordan probably missed more shots then most NBA players ever, yet people dont hold this one statistic against him to try and preted he is a bad basketballer, because those people are not idiots.


That is a missed tackle too.

Pretty sure Kobe has that record now too. BUT, in both b'ball instances the entire game plan is 'give it to MJ/ Kobe', so of course that's going to happen. Just like the argument about Croker winning the points gong because he is a goal kicker. The answer is 'well duh!'
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 4:53 pm
edwahu wrote:If three players go to make a tackle and one bounces off but the other two make it, does it count as one missed tackle?


Im of the understanding this goes down as 'ineffective', however its dependant on how it happened.
If all 3 go in, and that player falls off and the tackle is complete, its ineffective.
If he goes in, gets beat, then 2 others bring him down, its a miss.

Hope that helps.
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Glenn Lazarus
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 5:06 pm
To make this easier lets just drop the whole Brenko idea. All the others are ahead of him, so that makes things more straight forward.

I agree that Whighton, Croker and E. Lee and locked in, so It comes down to Rapana or BJ for the last spot.... It's a really hard choice! I love Rapana, but I think BJ has a little more improvement in him... I hate to say it but I think I'm, leaning toward starting BJ and having Rapana as a high quality back up. He'll probably still end up in the starting line up for 10 games due to injury.
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Ruben Wiki
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 5:51 pm
If anyone is really keen in the off-season just watch every try being scored against us and see where it was scored/the break made... Then post the results here, assuming it hasn't made you end your life before hand... As stated above the commentators often commented that our right hand side defence has been much worse this year but with-out doing what I mentioned earlier, and I'm not that masochistic, then no way to confirm, at least with-out paying overs for a professional stats site of some sort.

As for the topic at hand:

Fullback - Wighton, Rapana, a bean-bag-with-Wightons-face-on-it, Waqa (in that order)
Wings - E.Lee, Rapana, Waqa (in that order)
Centre - Croker, BJ, B.Lee, Waqa (in that order)
Hawkins is the go anywhere replacement if we are desperate or maybe someone else making a play from the under 20's/NSW cup sides.
Get Stuart to realise he is holding the club back and step down to player manager!
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Peter Jackson
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 5:55 pm
I'm going with whoever preforms the best in pre season and trial matches wins their spot for next season.

In saying that BJ is also a legitimate bench option.
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Ricky Stuart
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 5:57 pm
1. Wighton
2. Lee
3. Croker
4. BJ
5. Rapana
PROUD MEMBER OF THE CONVERSION ENTHUSIASTS
2009 Golden Boogs: McLinden Award
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:05 pm
Everything I've seen of BJ tells me he ain't up to it and if Rapana is fully fit and left out of the 17 the raiders can get ****! You are kidding yourself if you think BJ is ahead of Raps in the pecking order. A guy that gives 100% on every single play vs a guy who looks like he couldn't give 2 **** for 80 mins, yeah tough choice.
#The Clap #The Team #The Vibe
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Simon Woolford
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:12 pm
Fair Cop wrote:Everything I've seen of BJ tells me he ain't up to it and if Rapana is fully fit and left out of the 17 the raiders can get ****! You are kidding yourself if you think BJ is ahead of Raps in the pecking order. A guy that gives 100% on every single play vs a guy who looks like he couldn't give 2 **** for 80 mins, yeah tough choice.

x2 bringing BJ to the club is a joke, and the calibre of some the kids we are letting go for BJ is a joke.!!!BJ is LAZY and has no repeat efforts in him.
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David Furner
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:19 pm
Bj is a walk up start...easily in the top 2 centres at the club and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Waqa..Lee and Rapana to fight it out for the wing spot. Hopefully Hawkins can convert his Mounties form and also push for a spot in first grade
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David Furner
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:22 pm
Fair Cop wrote:Everything I've seen of BJ tells me he ain't up to it and if Rapana is fully fit and left out of the 17 the raiders can get ****! You are kidding yourself if you think BJ is ahead of Raps in the pecking order. A guy that gives 100% on every single play vs a guy who looks like he couldn't give 2 **** for 80 mins, yeah tough choice.


Bj isn't taking Rapanas spot.. BJ is a centre. Rapana, Waqa And Lee are all fighting it out for the 2 wing spots
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:25 pm
Can Cronin play all 5 backline spots?
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR....
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Simon Woolford
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:33 pm
Pigman wrote:Can Cronin play all 5 backline spots?

Not halfback.!!! anywhere else in the backline.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:38 pm
I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR....
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:41 pm
BJ and Croker will be the centres

Eddy Lee will be one winger

One spot left.

Hinges on Waqa , does he stay or does he go. He goes , Rapana's spot. If he stays it's Waqa's
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Simon Woolford
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:44 pm
Pigman wrote:I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.

Sorry I'm with you now, yes why not. Then you could cut your whole squad back to about 18 players. Pity he is leaving.
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David Shillington
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 8:48 pm
I wonder if sticky will be getting BJ to work on his terrible play the balls and offloads to the opposition.
In all seriousness if he decides he wants to be a rugby league next year then it could really add to our finals hopes.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 9:17 pm
papabear wrote:Yes a mistackle is a mistackle.

What is worse then a mistackle is a bad read.
Even worse then a bad read is not having your **** in the right spot to make a bad read in the first place.
Or a tackle you make and the guy gets over the try line and scores.

It is just one indicator of defensive quality there are thousands of others. Michael Jordan probably missed more shots then most NBA players ever, yet people dont hold this one statistic against him to try and preted he is a bad basketballer, because those people are not idiots.

Except when it's Jarrod Croker amirite?!?!
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 9:22 pm
Mullins_y2k wrote:To make this easier lets just drop the whole Brenko idea. All the others are ahead of him, so that makes things more straight forward.

I agree that Whighton, Croker and E. Lee and locked in, so It comes down to Rapana or BJ for the last spot.... It's a really hard choice! I love Rapana, but I think BJ has a little more improvement in him... I hate to say it but I think I'm, leaning toward starting BJ and having Rapana as a high quality back up. He'll probably still end up in the starting line up for 10 games due to injury.

You have Wighton at fullback yeah? Pretty sure you've got us playing with three 3/4's there Y2KM.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 9:51 pm
This conundrum is really starting to make me think that Waqa's money upgrading elsewhere in the squad may be moving forward.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Jason Croker
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 10:02 pm
I thought BJ looked pretty good considering he just came straight into the side. He's a weapon just very very very very stupid.

If he has a good pre season and doesn't report back fat he is going to be a walk up in the centres. If he does report back out of shape though sticky needs to be firm.
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Jason Croker
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 10:03 pm
Has BJ been re signed
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Simon Woolford
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 10:06 pm
Makaveli wrote:Has BJ been re signed

Not yet I believe.
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Don Furner
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 10:13 pm
No no yet.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 8, 2015, 10:51 pm
Wighton, rapana, croker, bj and lee. Sticky is building for the future so imo he will go with the guys he thinks can continue to improve.

Waqa won't be retained after next year and may move on early. Brenko needs a year in reserves and Hawkins is depth
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 5:23 am
charlie11 wrote:
Pigman wrote:I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.

Sorry I'm with you now, yes why not. Then you could cut your whole squad back to about 18 players. Pity he is leaving.

What happens then if Cronin gets injured? Our depth would really be tested.
RIP Greenbits: 2007-2014
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Simon Woolford
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 7:26 am
Dr Zaius wrote:
charlie11 wrote:
Pigman wrote:I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.

Sorry I'm with you now, yes why not. Then you could cut your whole squad back to about 18 players. Pity he is leaving.

What happens then if Cronin gets injured? Our depth would really be tested.

Yep.
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 8:07 am
Dr Zaius wrote:
charlie11 wrote:
Pigman wrote:I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.

Sorry I'm with you now, yes why not. Then you could cut your whole squad back to about 18 players. Pity he is leaving.

What happens then if Cronin gets injured? Our depth would really be tested.


what happens if the sun doesnt rise?
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR....
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 8:25 am
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
charlie11 wrote:
Pigman wrote:I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.

Sorry I'm with you now, yes why not. Then you could cut your whole squad back to about 18 players. Pity he is leaving.

What happens then if Cronin gets injured? Our depth would really be tested.


what happens if the sun doesnt rise?

An ice age I guess. But you are just being ridiculous now. The odds of the sun not rising are incredibly low. The odds of Cronin getting injured are at least reasonable. I mean the man will be playing 6 positions, that's sure to create wear and tear, particularly if he throws himself a hospital pass or two.
RIP Greenbits: 2007-2014
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 8:28 am
papabear wrote:Yes a mistackle is a mistackle.

What is worse then a mistackle is a bad read.
.


I really, really agree with this. Sometimes 'missed tackles' on an edge are actually good plays. A defender may have read the play and through desperation slowed the play down enough to stop a try or movement up the field.

A bad read will reult in a linebreak and often points though.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: September 9, 2015, 8:29 am
Dr Zaius wrote:
Pigman wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:
charlie11 wrote:
Pigman wrote:I meant all at once. I dont see why we need any of those guys
Name Cronin, play with 9 men, win a premiership. It aint hard.

Sorry I'm with you now, yes why not. Then you could cut your whole squad back to about 18 players. Pity he is leaving.

What happens then if Cronin gets injured? Our depth would really be tested.


what happens if the sun doesnt rise?

An ice age I guess. But you are just being ridiculous now. The odds of the sun not rising are incredibly low. The odds of Cronin getting injured are at least reasonable. I mean the man will be playing 6 positions, that's sure to create wear and tear, particularly if he throws himself a hospital pass or two.


Is he pretending to be McCrone also?
Gina Riley: Oh, come on, John. That’s a bit old hat, the corrupt IOC delegate.
John Clarke: Old hat? Gina, in the scientific world when they see that something is happening again and again and again, repeatedly, they don’t call it old hat. They call it a pattern.
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