Edrick and the Howell/Tupou effect

 
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 20, 2017, 9:32 pm
how we measure our wingers

Over the last 15 or so years wingers have morphed from whipping boys into one of the most important positions on the field.

so, just by the by.... 10 years ago I'd sit watching games with my now wife, who has no interest in rugby league, and David Howell just became the running joke that was 'butterfingers'. If it wasn't the ref that was costing us the game (my words) she became painfully aware that there were players in the team I love that just weren't very good. Well old fingers had taken over from the bomber himself Marshall Chalk, and didn't last long before he was replaced by Purtell, who lost out to the likes of shirt grabber Robinson who jostled with Bill Tupou who eventually lost out to gun junior Semi trailer turning circle Sauluima.

I still have nightmares...Milne being outjumped, Sauluima 20 metres in field, Robinson pretending to tackle, Chalk dropping the ball over the line, Purtell running in sand and Tupou pretending he knew the game.

We were a struggling team for a long time, and struggling teams don't have good wingers. Simple. You might unearth one, but he'll move quick smart. This was deadset us post Nagas and Nadruku IMO. (Vainokolo the perfect example of moving quick smart). The reason I am bringing this up, mainly is Edrick Lee. He showed us glimpses of promise that as a fan group we clung too so strongly we never forgot. But after watching him hawk eyed for Cronulla and discussing with others, I've concluded he really never was that good. We've had such a dearth of talent on the flanks (maybe outside of Monaghan who played centre anyway) that we cling to every flash of brilliance. Waqa excited us, Lee almost taunted us, but now we've uncovered the real gem in Rapana.

It's a bit of a rant I know, but the main thing I have to say is let's give Cotric a chance and not jump the shark either way. He's a good kid and there'll be bumps, but so be it. End of the day though I think we can move on and not worry about being hurt by Edrick, who I do hope comes good at Cronulla for his sake.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 20, 2017, 10:04 pm
Yeah, I think you're right but also I think Rapana is all-time good. As in better than Nagas and Noa (two of my faves) and everyone else. That's a big call and probably too early in his career to make it but he scores more tries than those guys and does way more in all other areas.

The reason I say this is because I reckon Edrick is a cut above your list of borderline first-graders and could still be a very good winger if he gets his head right. He might not but Sami, Chalky, Bill etc. were nowhere near it.

So I know I have been guilty of falling for the Howell-Tupou Effect many times for nearly all the guys you've mentioned but let's not do the reverse and Rapana Effect poor old Edrick.

p.s. Totally agree with Ricky's decision to punt Eddie for Cotric, Howell-Tupou Effect or not.
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 20, 2017, 11:31 pm
Edrick always seemed too fragile to me. Got scared every time he made a break or took a tackle in case he shattered into a thousand pieces or pulled a hammy. Rapa and now Cotric seem solid though, both in talent and in terms of their physical fitness.

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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 3:10 am
Ruben Daley wrote:Yeah, I think you're right but also I think Rapana is all-time good. As in better than Nagas and Noa (two of my faves) and everyone else. That's a big call and probably too early in his career to make it but he scores more tries than those guys and does way more in all other areas.

The reason I say this is because I reckon Edrick is a cut above your list of borderline first-graders and could still be a very good winger if he gets his head right. He might not but Sami, Chalky, Bill etc. were nowhere near it.

So I know I have been guilty of falling for the Howell-Tupou Effect many times for nearly all the guys you've mentioned but let's not do the reverse and Rapana Effect poor old Edrick.

p.s. Totally agree with Ricky's decision to punt Eddie for Cotric, Howell-Tupou Effect or not.

Well reasoned mate.

I thought Edrick played quite well yesterday. I found myself questioning if he ever put in that much effort bringing the ball back for us.
I'm sure he did - but even so, not for a moment do I think many of us would argue against Cotric being better basket to put our eggs in.
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Simon Woolford
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 6:13 am
IIRC Edrick came to RL late. I think he was a basketballer. This makes me feel he is not a natural footballer.
Anyhow I think RS made the correct call.
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 6:22 am
There's a difference between looking casual and not caring. Eddie looked casual but I've no doubt he was giving his all. There were times Eddie didn't look alert to all circumstances or reacted slowly to an unexpected play- it's almost like he was 10 years of footy instincts behind most blokes because he was a basketballer until his late teens or something...

I don't see why Eddie has to be lumped in with the likes of Howell. Eddie began as a flash winger with huge aerial game and some defensive issues. For whatever reason the aerial side dropped off but he became (2 games aside) a flash winger with some decent finishing skills and a very solid defensive game in his final season.

Eddie was a pretty good winger, nothing more, nothing less. Yes well hoped he could be the next Nagas, but he's streets better than Howell & Co.You can't bag anyone just because they don't measure up to Rapana, who may well go down on the all time wingers list ahead of Mr Daylight & behind Mr Ferguson one day.

For the record it's Chicka>Daylight>Nagas>Noa>Vainikolo>Eddie>About a hundred other numpties>Royston Lighting*

*MOnas excluded as he was a centre even when he was catching all this bombs in the Elliot era. And if we'd ever bombed 15 times a game to Eddie like we carpeted the Ho_Ch-Minh trail out to Monas then Eddie would be a 20 tries a year man and we'd all be bored to death again.
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 7:18 am
I'm sick of hearing that if we bombed to Eddie he'd have a zillion tries. I think it's bunkum. Yes he's tall, but I don't remember him making many high ball catches. Even the one in his highlights package someone put up, he barely jumped a foot to take it.

If it worked the team would have been using it as a tactic. There's a reason it was put in the bag and Croker was the target for most bombs.
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Bradley Clyde
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 8:15 am
Surely Brett Kelly should have got a special mention.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 8:28 am
Agree. Height can be an advantage but to be good at scoring from kicks you need vision, timing and very good hands. That's why Croker is usually the target when we kick to the left.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 9:06 am
LP Raider wrote:Surely Brett Kelly should have got a special mention.


Ah **** I knew I forgot someone obvious.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 9:27 am
gangrenous wrote:I'm sick of hearing that if we bombed to Eddie he'd have a zillion tries. I think it's bunkum. Yes he's tall, but I don't remember him making many high ball catches. Even the one in his highlights package someone put up, he barely jumped a foot to take it.

If it worked the team would have been using it as a tactic. There's a reason it was put in the bag and Croker was the target for most bombs.


Eddie would have grown up always being one of the tallest guys on the basketball court or footy field. For most of his life he's only ever had to jump high enough to reach a 10ft ring or beat his opposing number to the ball so I doubt he's ever really had to work hard at the aerial part of his game. Put him up against slightly shorter players who've had to fight for every advantage to make it to the highest level and it's not all that surprising to see the results.
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Ricky Stuart
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 12:44 pm
So what's the verdict on Phil Graham? He'd just about be my all time favourite Raider, but now I'm not sure if he was average and I just loved seeing him pluck those intercepts every second week.

Every time he got hurt my heart broke a little bit.


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Jason Croker
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 12:50 pm
Didn't Raiders sign Bruce Stadium's greenkeeper to play wing for a bit too? Matt Gafa?
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 1:13 pm
No doubt wingers have become more inclusive in the action as the game has evolved. The hit ups they do now (often into the teeth of the opposition forwards) means they are bigger and more is now expected of them. I don't know that the Raiders were that good at wing recruitment/development since 1982. Terry Fahey was a template of what was to come in playing the game but his style of player was rarely nurtured. Others like Chicka Ferguson were too good on their feet to leave out. But size matters in wingers now and so does handling the ball under pressure. Eddie didn't meet the test last year and it cost the side. I still think we are short of players for our backline. A quality winger pickup as the season progresses would be of benefit if there is cap space available.

Good topic Julian
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 2:08 pm
Completely disagree. Lee was a decent / above average winger who was pushed out due to cap constraints. I think its a bit petty of some people to, once he has left, start calling him rubbish.
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David Furner
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 2:55 pm
Riaan wrote:Completely disagree. Lee was a decent / above average winger who was pushed out due to cap constraints. I think its a bit petty of some people to, once he has left, start calling him rubbish.

Plenty of people were already calling him rubbish if you remember


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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 3:13 pm
Yeh Phil Graham is a forgotten man in that list. He is up there with chicka (almost) without the benefit of playing alongside all time greats. He could also play centre.
Remember when Billy Slater scored that try in SOO by chipping infield over Minichello, and the whole world erupted? Well PhilGraham did exactly the same the following year. He was awesome. Unfortunately he did his knee in the country-city game and never fully recovered.
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John Ferguson
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 3:49 pm
Ruben Daley wrote:Yeah, I think you're right but also I think Rapana is all-time good. As in better than Nagas and Noa (two of my faves) and everyone else. That's a big call and probably too early in his career to make it but he scores more tries than those guys and does way more in all other areas.

The reason I say this is because I reckon Edrick is a cut above your list of borderline first-graders and could still be a very good winger if he gets his head right. He might not but Sami, Chalky, Bill etc. were nowhere near it.

So I know I have been guilty of falling for the Howell-Tupou Effect many times for nearly all the guys you've mentioned but let's not do the reverse and Rapana Effect poor old Edrick.

p.s. Totally agree with Ricky's decision to punt Eddie for Cotric, Howell-Tupou Effect or not.


Agree with this. He is an outstanding winger but also one of our main attacking threats. I can't think of many wingers I've seen that fit into that category of player.
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 4:17 pm
Riaan wrote:Completely disagree. Lee was a decent / above average winger who was pushed out due to cap constraints. I think its a bit petty of some people to, once he has left, start calling him rubbish.


Huzzah
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Bradley Clyde
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 4:41 pm
julian87 wrote:
LP Raider wrote:Surely Brett Kelly should have got a special mention.


Ah **** I knew I forgot someone obvious.

Very good thread J87, highlights how far forward the Raiders have gone.

Well done.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 4:49 pm
Phil Graham was a centre IMO, and in his prime he was decent.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 4:52 pm
Riaan wrote:Completely disagree. Lee was a decent / above average winger who was pushed out due to cap constraints. I think its a bit petty of some people to, once he has left, start calling him rubbish.


I didn't say he was rubbish. Just that he wasn't as good as some of us thought. And I'm definitely not one to change my opinion on a player simply because they're gone.

Just as a side note he's been dropped from Cronulla's first grade side now whilst they keep a reserve grade second rower at centre.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Brett Mullins
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 4:57 pm
woppadingo wrote:Yeh Phil Graham is a forgotten man in that list. He is up there with chicka (almost) without the benefit of playing alongside all time greats. He could also play centre.
.


Who, hold up.

1. Rapana could be an atg, he's that good. He just needs to produce in big games, at big moments and win a premiership. That puts him on par with Chicka. (I'll take 1, instead of a few, to handicap for the Raiders 1990 lineup- but just the once, since Chicka started before anyone rated any of the Raiders and finished just as the 1990s side was really hitting stride).

2. Phil Graham & Chicka do not belong in the same sentence.

Evidence: Just watch the 1990 GF, this is Chicka at 36 (more like 40). It's a different game then so wingers rarely ruck out but let's check Chicka's first 4 involvements.

1. receives ball at dummy half 2m from own try line, it's get smashed time. But this is Chicka, sends them all the wrong way, burrows through some defence with speed & energy, earns a penalty.
2. 1 on 1 try saving tackle 5m from own try line, gets in there & swings/jolts ball loose.
3. Effective tackle with Big Mal.
4. Receives ball on the bounce from Stuart, 12m out from Panthers' tryline. 3 players in front of him. Standing start due to bouncing ball. Steps 2, too quick for 3rd, own left boot left behind in bewilderment, scores next to posts. We're 15 minutes into the game and Raiders now have the lead, deflating the inexperienced Panthers.

I'll stop there but later on he puts on a huge tackle driving up under the ribs to jolt a ball loose for Daley to score too. Chicka isn't even remembered as the hero for this match. Just a days work for Chicka.

Phil Graham was ok. Chicka was a freak. Rapana could be too. But he's gonna need to put in quality like that in semi's & finals too.
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:05 pm
julian87 wrote:
Riaan wrote:Completely disagree. Lee was a decent / above average winger who was pushed out due to cap constraints. I think its a bit petty of some people to, once he has left, start calling him rubbish.


I didn't say he was rubbish. Just that he wasn't as good as some of us thought. And I'm definitely not one to change my opinion on a player simply because they're gone.

Just as a side note he's been dropped from Cronulla's first grade side now whilst they keep a reserve grade second rower at centre.


Indeed. Above average winger is the stretch here.
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Chris O'Sullivan
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:16 pm
Weird.

Lee is one of the best wingers we've had for years. Speed demon and an excellent target for bombs, even if it was to draw attention to himself and leave Croker have a better chance of collecting.
He's lost as hell right now. That effort against Wighton the other week when he ran towards the sideline was laughable but I feel for the guy.

Rapana is an excellent player. He is dangerous all across the park.
The comment that he is better than Noa or Nagas is a bit silly to be honest.
Noa - Rugby Union Legend - to get him to the Raiders was a masterstroke and shook up Rugby League.
Nagas - Would be talked about as a demi god around these parts if Brett Mullins wasn't in the team. He scored 6 tries in one game at Bruce Stadium that I've never found reference to because it happened in one of those mickey mouse world club challenges, and his in and away on Scott Wilson in the 94 Grand Final was the most pure wingers play EVER. If Nagas played for QLD - he would have played over a dozen Origin matches.

That is all. I need to eat.

Although - Please go easy on Eddie. He is being found out a bit at the moment, but I kinda think he really tried for us, and deserved his spot each week.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:25 pm
Love4Noa wrote:Weird.

Lee is one of the best wingers we've had for years. .


That's sort of the point of the thread. Lee was a bit better than the other numpties we've had like Kelly, Howell, Purtell, Tupou, Goodwin and Milne but it doesn't mean he was actually that good.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Laurie Daley
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:26 pm
This topic wasn't aimed at Rapana either fwiw. He's pretty much the best winger in rugby league, he's brilliant,.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Dean Lance
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:36 pm
Funny thread. Not long ago people made reference to Rapanas handling and error count.

Eddy Lee is a very good winger.

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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:46 pm
I'm certainly no defender of Edrick
I saw this on the horizon some time ago when I started questioning his work rate

But the criticism has gone a bit too far. Not the OP. I think the OP is spot on in that Edrick was much better than the recent options we've had

Edrick doesn't belong in the same sentence of Howell, Chalk etc al. He was a solid FGer for us who had the the skill set to be elite, he and Dan Vidot are players I'll always think if they had any footy nous at all, had all the physical traits to be world class wingers
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:51 pm
Pigman wrote:But the criticism has gone a bit too far. Not the OP. I think the OP is spot on in that Edrick was much better than the recent options we've had


Where?
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:54 pm
Not particularly this thread or even this site. Just talking to fans, seeing the comments about him pop up here and in social media
I just think a lot of people (including myself for a period) over rated him and are now being a little OTT with rubbishing him out the door

That said, he's just been dropped and is behind Luke friggin Capewell so he's not having a good 2017 so far
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Gary Belcher
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 5:55 pm
Happy to agree with that.

****. Thought we were back reliving the good times pigman
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 6:01 pm
No, those were the bad days, baby. We can't go back, I won't! I'll never hit you again. I promise [HEAVY BLACK HEART]️
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Clinton Schifcofske
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 6:28 pm
Phil Graham to me was far, far more exciting than Dugan etc ever was.

Previous to Phil, I used to absolutely lose my marbles about McLinden (sorry I know we are talking wingers - that said - pretty sure Mark debuted out there!)

...I wonder where Phil ever ended up, there was a golden season there where I thought he had a shot at a call-up for the blues.

I'd happily buy the bloke a beer or ten.

p.s. anyone know why McLinden left us? I never learnt the goss there. Did he just want to travel? I think I read that once?
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Mal Meninga
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PostPosted: March 21, 2017, 6:30 pm
Graham was the tits
One of those guys who would have been considered so much better if he played for a good team. I loved him
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